Re: Kansas City Prophets
Letter by Dave Y. (2005)


In November 2005 I received a letter from an old friend of mine, Kathy. She was actually responding to a letter I had sent her detailing some points about a recent trip I had taken to North Carolina where I visited Rick Joyner's church, at which Bob Jones was also present. In my letter I detailed several reasons why I cannot accept Joyner and Jones as true apostles or prophets. Apparently, my letter was a bit of a surprise to Kathy so she passed it along to a friend of hers by the name of Patricia King (www.extremeprophetic.com) who apparently knows Bob Jones and Rick Joyner. Patricia replied to Kathy and claimed I was in error about Jones and also stated that Christians need to guard against negativity and that we need to pray for covering of ALL ministries. This is sadly typical among many of these so-called "prophetic" ministries today; rather than examine things in light of documented evidence, the truth of Scripture and sound reason, they give responses like Patricia's - warning against negativity, against touching God's anointed, against receiving any contrary report and making a righteous judgment/discernment, and seek to discredit the ones pointing out the error but without any stated evidence to back up their claim. I responded to the very short reponse Patricia gave Kathy (who in turn forwarded it to me). The following is that letter. I wanted to re-print it here since it contains further evidence why I cannot in good conscience receive Rick Joyner, Bob Jones or Paul cain as true apostles, prophets or ministers of God. NOTE: A few details in the letter have been edited to clarify context and some minor corrections adjusted. I also shared my corrections with Kathy concerning the initial resources regarding Bob Jones. Please also read my follow up comments below the letter to Kathy (added 11/09/2012).


Hi Kat...

Ok, here's my long-winded response to the concerns voiced by your friend (Patricia King) who thinks I am misrepresenting Bob Jones...

The news about Jones was reported by Roy Rivenburg in his news article "A Question of Faith," (Los Angeles Times, 28 January 1992, sec. El, P. 8). The article stated that Bob "admitted touching and fondling two women... The indiscretions stopped short of intercourse but 'went way beyond what a Christian should do.' Vineyard officials yanked the prophet from the ministry..." This was also reported in the Olathe Daily News paper, 11/31/91. It contained that Jones admitted to sexual misconduct.  He was removed from "ministry" to undergo a process of "restoration".  This news was also published in a book called "What Happened To The Fire" by Lee Grady (1994).  On page 103 it states, "About a year later, after the church had become affiliated with John Wimber's Vineyard network of churches, Jones admitted to a moral failure and was removed from his leadership position. Later, Mike Bickle stated publicly that he had promoted Jones improperly. He admitted that his church's emphasis on prophecy and mystical experiences had been unhealthy and destructive." Then, in another review of the Kansas City Prophets, Bill Alnor of the Christian Sentinal reported the following: "Jones, who was using his spiritual authority to induce women to disrobe for him, was removed from that church."  I have contacted Bill personally and he will be forwarding me a copy of the investigative internal report that was published directly by the leadership team at the church where this incident transpired. The Apologetics Index, which is a ministry that researches resources on cults, sects and other religious movements, doctrines and practices, also reported on the matter.  They state the following, that Bob Jones "was removed from the Vineyard Anaheim because of sexual improprieties, which consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand 'naked before the Lord' in order to receive a 'word.'"  In addition to this, several cult watch organizations have put him (Bob Jones) on watch for the same thing.  Those are my sources concerning the sexual misconduct issue.  However, if I am wrong about this detail I will apologize for my error...

My one caution would still be that if Patricia King is in direct fellowship with these men, by virtue of that fact alone, I would be more leery of her as a trustworthy source on this detail.  In other words I would wholly expect that she would attempt to defend them.

I also see that she seems to be very trusting of Rick Joyner but a little ignorant as well in my opinion (well, MAYBE she's ignorant... I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt).  For example, on her website, she publishes a commentary on the situation with Paul Cain.  She avoids the biblical response, which I will mention later in this letter, and she cites Joyner's archived updates about Cain as evidence that they are being completely forward about the situation.  I will explain in a moment as well, why this is false.

All of that to say that I am not judging Patricia as a person and I appreciate that she responded to you (I also understand why she would naturally defend people that she currently looks up to), but my convictions on this matter are not born of bitterness, hurt, gossip, or a desire to be critical at all of these men (like Bob Jones).  I used to link to all of their websites from my own before my own eyes started opening.  The crux of the revelation was when I visited Joyner's church myself as experienced the deception happening in full display.  The atmosphere was so grievous I cannot tell you.  It literally nauseated me.  I have very strong reasons why I have reached the concerns I now hold concerning these people.  Reasons that are too numerous to detail here, but I will detail a few to give you at least a little bit of context.

One of the things I find concerning about Bob Jones, aside from the sexual misconduct scandal, is the fact that his prophecies very often fail.  I have read quotes by Jones and was also at a conference where he made reference to the same; that he thought (at that time) that the best prophets only operated at about a 65% accuracy level and some were as low as 10%!!!  He also said there was probably only a 15% accuracy rating among most prophets in the Church but that it would improve as this anointing increases.  Please!  In other words he is suggesting that God is ok with an 85% to 95% prophetic failure rate!  Unbelievable!!!  These men still want people to take their words as though they are 100% accurate.  They often issue warnings along with their words if they are not heeded.  This gross deception is ruining lives.  They are meddling in things they ought not to meddle with.  They are claiming to speak for God and getting it wrong (according to Jones's own admission) 35-95% of the time!  Why is that not a concern to people?  At what point to the red flags and flashing lights become apparent?  You know what I'm saying?  There is plenty more evidence to discredit this man from being a prophet than just some sexual indiscretion report from back in 1991.  In fact, as you will see in a moment, there is a mountain of evidence that only lends credence to the likelihood of the report.

Personally, I have no problem believing that story about Jones is true for a number of reasons.  One, because he's a bit of a whack job.  I've seen him operate in person and there are just no other words to describe him.  Bob Jones claims that when he was nine years old living in Arkansas, an angel carrying a "great trumpet” came riding down from the sky on a white horse and stopped before him in the middle of a dirt road.  He didn't know what to make of it until he was thirteen, when he was escorted to the very throne room of God in heaven... bla bla bla... All of these guys rely on ultra sensational stories like this (rather than simple biblical truth and humility) to validate them.

Two, Bob Jones was at one time hospitalized in a mental institution!  He was 39 at the time and was seeing demons and hearing voices regularly - the voices also told him to run away from the institution and go kill people!  The doctors there said that his condition was so bad that they presumed he would be there for the rest of his life!  Bob has stated in his testimony that God told him that if he was to regain his sanity, he would either kill 12 people or choose to forgive them...  thankfully he chose to forgive. ;)  Bob also asserts that when he left the institution, his visions shifted so that he immediately went from seeing demons all the time, to seeing angels and visions.  Is it really just me, or is there ample reason to question this guy?

Three, I have no problem believing the report because of the truly outlandish statements and false prophecies this man has uttered.  On one teaching tape, Bob was talking about these last days prophets that are rising up and he said, "No prophet or apostle who ever lived equaled the power of these individuals in this great army of the Lord in these last days. No one ever had it, not even Elijah or Peter or Paul, or anyone else enjoyed the power that is gong to rest on this great army."  Then, once when Mike Bickle was interviewing Bob about this, Bob said, "The anointing of the end time prophets and apostles will be ten times the anointing of Moses."  Wow!!!  Who can argue with these guys?  They have exalted their own thrones to the highest place that not even the Scripture compares with them (Moses, Elijah, Peter, Paul, etc. were all inferior to them).  Utterly amazing!!!  Utterly disgusting!  I would like to remind guys like this of the Scripture:

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 - And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Four, I also have no problem believing the report because the man he (Bob Jones) is in fellowship with (and parks right next to) is not much better.  I have done extensive research on Rick Joyner.  He is a chosen member of the Knights of Malta (a.k.a. The Order of Saint John, a.k.a. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta).  This is a wholly Roman Catholic Order that serves in allegiance to the Pope.  You have to be chosen to be a member, you cannot simply join.  They do NOT espouse pure Christian doctrine, though Joyner still continues to call them a "Christian" order.  Well, the Catholics also refer to themselves as "Christian" and they also refer to the Order of Malta as being a "Christian" order, but they teach another Jesus and another gospel.  I know what I know about the Order of Malta because I have contacted the Order's headquarters directly on a couple of occasions and I have read extensively on them.  I am not ignorant about them.  Joyner claims to be a member of a chapter of the Order that is not under the direct control of the "Roman" Catholic Church. Apparently this chapter is recognized as the Grand Priory of Canada they are affiliated with the Greek-Melkite-Catholic Church. The Melkites are supposedly not technically "Roman" Catholics (thus enabling Joyner to make the implication that they are not a Roman Catholic Order); HOWEVER, the Melkite Church (and I quote directly from their website) "are in union with the Church of Rome." The Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia also states: "The Melkite Greek Catholic Church is an Eastern Rite church with Eastern Orthodox traditions in FULL COMMUNION WITH the Roman Catholic Church." They acknowledge their church's submission to the authority of the Pope. They practice the Roman Catholic tradition of Holy Eucharist (in which a priest invokes the Holy Spirit over the bread and wine believing that He transubstanciates these elements into the literal flesh and blood of Christ to enable union with the Divine - members believe they are actually consuming the "Divine Presence" of Jesus LITERALLY - in other words, this is canibalism) and they employ the use of icons, vestments, and liturgical vessels for the Divine Liturgy which are fully harmonious with the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. They honor Mary as the Theotokos (Mother of God) and believe that "Mary bridges the gap between God and us" because she carried the Son of God in her womb. To an ignorant Protestant they would presume the Melkites are Roman Catholics because of all appearances. Well, semantics aside, I assert boldly that they are no different. They boldly admit union with the Church of Rome though they, at the same time, do not claim to be Roman Catholic. Talk about splitting hairs!

Joyner's involvement with the Catholic Order of Malta should be a concern for every Christian that has taken interest in his ministry.  Many of the concepts in his books are flat out unbiblical.  And I was in that conference live as I watched the guest minister use Catholic phraseology while Joyner and Bob Jones nodded on in approval.  I recommend you read the book called "Smokescreens" by Jack Chick.

Joyner also covered the sexual sin of Prophet Paul Cain for over a year!  Not only did he cover him, but he promoted him and elevated him in the Church as a standard of purity!!!  He profited by his "ministry".  Joyner even admitted this when the news first broke, but has since tried to clean up the initial report.  I have, saved on my computer, the initial news release issued by Joyner.  A couple days ago, I checked the archives on Joyner's website and found that same report... only it was no longer the same report (although they claim it was the actual archive) - THEY HAD CHANGED THE ARCHIVE to make it look as though they were not taking as much responsibility as they started to initially and they removed their warning against the deception of Paul Cain, who still continues to practice homosexuality and is an alcoholic.  This is one of the segments that was removed from the initial archive concerning Paul Cain:

"...until he is restored we believe that he will continue using the stature and authority that he has in the church, as well as the spiritual gifts that have been entrusted to him, deceptively, in order to seduce and defile others."

And this is exactly what has happened!  Paul Cain's ministry website was just revamped this year.  They are touting him as a standard of purity and there is not even a single mention on the site of his bondage to homosexuality and alcohol.  The last report (August 2005 by Joyner) concerning Cain even states that he is still struggling with this perversion and has not recovered from it.  Yet look what Paul Cain's website reports about him:

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Quote from Paul Cain's Website:

During the height of his public ministry, the Lord began to speak to Paul about the excesses of the healing-revival movement. For the next few years, Paul watched in agony as many of the leaders of the healing-revival movement suffered moral failures involving money, sex, and power, and lost their ministries or seemed to die prematurely, or in infamy. By 1958, Paul had become totally disheartened. At age 29, he was disillusioned and burned out.

In the midst of Paul's despair and repentance, God told him that if he kept himself from corruption and remained content with living a humble life marked by Scripture study and prayer, one day he would be allowed to stand before a new breed of men and women leaders. These would be marked by simplicity, purity and remarkable manifestations of power. Paul's obedience to God would result in him waiting on the Lord for some 25 years... a true desert experience. Paul calls these his "almost silent" years. However there was never a time when he was totally out of the ministry.

Then Paul emerged in 1988 to begin a new phase of supernatural healing and prophetic ministry. He has since traveled around the world, proclaiming the gospel and calling the church back to purity and holiness. He has ministered to many national and international leaders - both political leaders (including presidents and senators) and spiritual leaders (including key church and denominational leaders).

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Anyone reading that would be led to think that Paul has remained free of corruption and immorality and that this somehow validates his authority as being a prophet of prophets.  But the truth is, he is not a symbol of purity, he is a very sick man that needs healing.

The Scripture says that when a brother is engaged in sexual perversion, immorality and drunkenness, that we are not even to eat with him but admonish him and, if he will not repent, turn him over to the judgment of God.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 - When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.  What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.  It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.  God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

I truly fail to understand Kathy how Christians can know the truth about such individuals and still elevate them as superheroes in the Faith.  Jesus said, we are to leave them alone.  That doesn't mean we hate them.  It doesn't mean that we stop praying for them or stop hoping that God saves them and heals them.  But it does mean we leave them alone.  Jesus said we would know a tree by its fruit.  WE KNOW THE FRUIT OF MEN LIKE THIS!  Their error mixed with their position can wreak damage in the lives of sincere people.  That's why Jesus said in Matthew 18 that it would be better for them to have a stone placed about their neck and them thrown into the sea than to cause one of His little ones to stumble.  You know the passage that is often cited about if your hand offends thee cut it off?  Well, if you examine the context of that passage, Jesus was speaking concerning "leaders."  This is the same passage where he gives the millstone warning.  It flows with the same logic.  If one of these is causing others to sin, it would be better to cut his hand off.  To further show the context, Jesus concludes the thought by saying, (verse 10) "Beware that you don't despise a single one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels are always in the presence of my heavenly Father."  We were taught basically that this passage applied to general sin.  If our hand causes us to steal, cut it off - so we conclude, oh we shouldn't steal or we should sin.  But few have really stopped to recognize the severe warning Jesus is giving about those who sin against His sheep by causing them to stumble!  This is not light stuff and we ought not to take it lightly.

I used to be a fan, somewhat, of Joyner and company.  I've been to conferences with both and I've read their books and listened to their tapes.  But in good conscience, I cannot support this man (or rather "these men") anymore.  He has aligned himself with unholy associations, he has promoted men who ought to be removed, he has lied and given false prophecies as have his associate prophets.  I did not come to these conclusions over night.  I didn't just read some article and go, oh well I believe that.  I researched it.  I made attempts to contact him myself.  I examined the reports on his own website.  I contacted the Order that he is affiliated with myself.  I examined many of the prophecies that have been given and have been false.  I read his books and compared them with the doctrine of Scripture.  I have weighed this man thoroughly and fairly and found him wanting.  I believe he is wholly in error and a deceived and I'm afraid that many others will also follow in deception if they do not open their eyes and let this man and his so-called company of prophets alone.

I am not anti-prophecy.  I believe in the prophetic anointing.  But this man is a danger in my honest opinion.  I am sad that I once recommended his books.  But that was in ignorance.  I am no longer ignorant and I refuse to stay ignorant.  Joyner and Jones (and Cain for that matter) are men, just like me.  God loves them, just like he loves me.  But the Scripture gives us a clear gage to discern truth from error and good from evil.  I know it's a hard truth to examine because we all, I think, enjoyed Joyner's books - especially during renewal.  Anyway, that's just a nutshell behind why I feel no reserve in offering warning to discern these men.

I disagree that we need to pray for "covering" of all ministries (as your friend Patricia claims).  Nowhere does the Bible ever call us to such a cause.  We are to walk in the truth, use discernment, and trust Jesus.  The truth is our standard and "covering".  There is ample warning in Scripture to be on the watch for false apostles and false prophets.  Paul said in Acts that for THREE YEARS he warned the believers with tears in eyes to watch out for wolves that would come in.  Jesus prophesied it as well.  But most Christians today make excuses for everyone, as if they don't believe there are any false apostles or prophets out there.  What do they think?  Do they imagine that they will walk out on stage with a sign on their chest that says, "Don't listen to me, I'm a false prophet."

I am sick of the threat where Christians (even especially these false prophets) misuse the Scripture "touch not mine anointed."  They use it to remove all chance of calling into question their actions.  Well, because of Jesus, I am also God's anointed and if that warning applies to me, it applies to them even more.  If you study that passage you will find that God gave this warning to KINGS!  In other words, to those in authority!  He warned them not to touch His anointed - HIS PEOPLE!

I notice that your friend only commented on my report of Jones... What about the facts concerning Joyner and Paul Cain?  These all stand in tight fellowship together.  They were also part of Jones' "restoration".  Also, what are her sources that Jones was not removed for sexual misconduct and then later restored to a prophet status?

I am also not intimidated by the threat of "negativity".  Many things Jesus and the apostles said could be construed as "negative" in content.  Paul called out false leaders by name to the whole Church.  That was pretty negative wasn't it?  Paul criticized other so-called apostles, exposed their error, and even sarcastically referred to them as "Super Apostles" to make note of their arrogance.  Jesus even called the religious leaders of His day harsh names; hypocrite, fools, vipers, sons of their father the devil, etc.  That was pretty negative wasn't it?  This concern over negativity is silly talk.  It's time we discern truth from error.  Exposing a false leader is actually positive, in my view, because it helps lessen the chance that other will be spiritual abused.  That is God's heart isn't it; that we do not become distracted but fall wholly in love with Him?  I don't get off on mentioning the error of men like Joyner.  But someone has to speak up and since my eyes opened to the truth concerning him, how can I be silent with that information without also being guilty before God.  If you knew that someone was a child molester and your close friend was going to let them watch their kids (because they didn't know he was), would you stand silent and say nothing for fear that this would be too "negative"?  Well, that's how grievous this is to me.  These men are spiritually molesting God's children and I cannot tolerate it anymore.

I don't have the luxury of buying into their garbage because it sounds nice or feels good.  I have lived too much of my life in the Church that way; always looking for new "spiritual keys" and "steps" and "principles."  I have found that all of that is just a smokescreen called "legalism."  The Gospel is not about finding keys.  The big problem with all these special ministries who claim to have unlocked the hidden secrets of truth is that they are essentially suggesting that YOU can follow some formula to get favor, blessing, provision, healing, and deliverance from God.  Ultimately, it's all about YOU not HIM.  The Gospel says, "I am nothing, I have nothing, and there is NOTHING I can do to earn, deserve or appropriate the salvation of God."  It is ALL His grace.  The Bible says that IN CHRIST we HAVE EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING there is!!!!  So only THROUGH HIM do we have access.  Not through keeping little rules or gathering up little keys.  Jesus never ever taught such nonsense.  We are being deceived and led astray from Christ when we buy into these little diversions.  They come loaded with elements of truth, but they are slighted from the truth.   The devil is a crafty salesman.  We need to stay alert and not let anything distract us from Him.

Well, I've blabbed long enough, but I wanted to give some context there so you know where I'm coming from.  You can take it or leave it.  Your friend can think whatever she pleases about me.  It matters little to me.  I just don't want to stand on judgment day having known in my heart something that could have kept my fellow brothers and sisters from spiritual harm and said nothing.  If you can't agree with me, then I respect that.  You have to be true to your own discernment and convictions.  So now perhaps you can even better weigh what I have shared too.

I am not hateful of Joyner, Cain or Jones.  I know Jesus loves them and I pray, sincerely pray, they will come to a full realization of the truth.  Right now, based on my discernment, my research, and examination of Scripture, I believe they are obstacles to truth and I hold them as false apostles and false prophets.

So, there ya have it. :)  Now you can wake up from falling asleep after my long winded reply.  I love you guys and so I just feel freely to share with you as things are on my heart.  I miss ya too.  I hope you have an awesome rest of the weekend.

Love ya,
Dave




The above letter was sent November 5, 2005 to a personal friend in response to a discussion about false ministers. Please do not copy the contents of this letter without express permission by the author ([email protected]). Thank you.



One other detail I would like to add (as of November 9th, 2012)... To further illustrate the obvious lack of prophetic insight and deceptive talk by men like Bob Jones and Rick Joyner; Bob's own website (and in public speeches on numerous occasions) predicted that Mitt Romney would be elected President of the United States this very November. The claim is that the Lord spoke to Jones and his wife through a series of dreams about this and indicated that this would be evidence of America turning its heart back to God (I have these transcripts saved on my computer in the event that they end up being removed from his website, which he has done in the past). For the record, Bob includes his wife in the prophetic office as well. Their ministry is called "The Prophetic Ministry of Bob and Bonnie Jones" and the following information was gathered directly from their website under the heading "Prophetic Words for 2012". Let there be no mistake, this information was shared as being a prophetic word from God.

Of course everyone now knows that Mitt Romney did NOT become President. The obvious truth is that Bob Jones (and his wife) did NOT hear from God concerning this matter and his prophetic insight proved to be no insight at all. In another publication, the same prophecy is spoken of BUT adds that is was opinion, not "thus saith the Lord". The problem is a total lack of consistency (and, the fact is, this is simply an outright lie). On the first occasion I mentioned, the word is clearly described as PROPHECY and as being FROM GOD. In fact Bob (along with his wife Bonnie who often writes on Bob's behalf on his website) prefaces the mention of the dreams about Romney by saying the following: "It's time we begin to pay closer attention to what the Lord is saying to us especially through dreams. Sometimes we disregard our dreams or feel they are insignificant. I want to show you through a series of dreams I had, beginning November of last year, how the Lord began to reveal our next President and the need to support him." The same article mentions that there will be "a righteous covering over this nation that will be created as Mitt Romney takes office." This continues saying, "everything concerning the current administration (referring to Obama) will be turned upside down in one great wave or better said, a landslide victory for Mitt Romney. When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him." At this point another dream is mentioned and following the dream Bonnie adds: "When I awoke from this dream I prayed for understanding. The only thing I heard was January 16th. Looking back at my notes from that date this year, Bob was told we can look for a change in everything; spiritual, government, president, weather patterns and economy; a perfect storm. Then the Lord asked Bob what he thought about a Mormon president..."

The MorningStar Prophetic Bulletin #74 (November 2012) has Joyner posting a message on his website (apparently in response to some email he has received), trying to make it clear that he himself never technically prophesied that Romney would be elected... However, there is video evidence (which I also have in my possession) of him speaking favorably of Mormonism and also about something called the "White Horse" prophecy, which is a Mormon prophecy declaring that America would be in a state of decline and a Mormon leader would rise up and save it. Joyner said he believed this could very well turn out to be true this election. Obviously, it did not happen. He was wrong. Consider how these men will declare that God spoke to them in dreams about a Mormon becoming president this year (2012) and also putting stock in Mormon prophecies (leading other to embrace them as well by the very example they set), while marginalizing the differences between false and Christian doctrine - is it really that confusing to see that these men are not true prophets or apostles of Jesus Christ?

This is just another example of men (speaking of Joyner and company) who regularly tout themselves as prophets, apostles and leaders who think they have a clue what God's up to and yet time and again they prove themselves false... and then sweep the evidence under the rug. You watch, in the days following my post here, all evidence that they ever spoke favorably (even in prophetic tone) about a Mormon President will fade from their websites. Joyner and Jones have done this many times before.